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QC@QiaochuYuanabout 1 year ago

this is another thing i used to believe strongly and don’t anymore. again this is a helpful corrective starting from a (sadly very common) position of being overwhelmed by “toxic shame”. but there is such a thing as healthy shame and it matters to your ability to behave ethically. i’ve repeatedly found myself stuck in depressive states that involved being overwhelmed by shame and having the vague sense that i was supposed to deal with it by loving myself more or being kinder to myself, and that never felt accessible, never felt like the right move, and never ended up being what actually helped. the shame was trying to tell me something - among other things, that i was acting out of integrity with my own values. and when i’m deep in the shit it often feels like trying to be kinder to myself would be letting myself off the hook, which feels unacceptable. maybe it doesn’t have to feel that way but i bet i’m not the only person who’s wired up like that internally. there is a developmental aspect here. the sort of person to whom this kind of messaging is likely to be helpful maybe had early childhood experiences that led to them feeling ashamed of themselves at an existential level, ashamed of existing and having feelings and needs, that kind of thing. unconditional love is exactly what is needed for this situation; it’s what you should have gotten but didn’t get as a young child, it’s what was supposed to establish your basic sense of having a right to exist. but it’s possible to get stuck here - at some point you might need to redo aspects of being an older child, a teenager, a young adult, and these are different developmental stages with different developmental tasks, some of which might involve eg feeling healthy and appropriate amounts of shame over hurting other people, that kind of thing. sometimes what you need is a stern talking-to, not a hug! love is the foundation but then you build a whole other thing on top of that foundation!

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QC@QiaochuYuanabout 1 year ago
Replying to @QiaochuYuan

this is related to the “redoing kegan 3 vs. redoing kegan 4” stuff i was noodling on awhile ago https://t.co/3rK88m8CVL

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QC@QiaochuYuanover 2 years ago

i don't love any particular developmental framework but i'm inclined to think of different people on here as dealing with different developmental transitions one way or another, and advice perfect for one transition may be the wrong direction for another. tricky stuff to sort out

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QC@QiaochuYuanabout 1 year ago
Replying to @QiaochuYuan

yeah this thing too https://t.co/lUlqHoo60o

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˚♡⋆mimi ˚♡⋆。☆∴@mimi10v3about 1 year ago
Replying to @QiaochuYuan

@QiaochuYuan yes! 🙌 i feel similarly about people banning "should" from their vocabulary https://t.co/ggTak3B1uU

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˚♡⋆mimi ˚♡⋆。☆∴@mimi10v3over 1 year ago

@itinerantfog i find it to be a useful word when talking about moral leadings- i'm a vegan because i feel i *should* be one, i try to be prosocial because i feel i should...

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QC@QiaochuYuanabout 1 year ago
Replying to @mimi10v3

@mimi10v3 this is a thing i was super into for awhile and i understand why i was doing it but yeah, at some point it just stops seeming like a big deal

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Nadia@nadiainthoughtabout 1 year ago
Replying to @QiaochuYuan

@QiaochuYuan Well said. I feel similarly about people saying "I am enough" where it's helpful in some cases but not when it's used to evade accountability for not behaving with integrity or letting others down. In that case you weren't kind/reliable/accountable enough *but you can be*

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QC@QiaochuYuanabout 1 year ago
Replying to @nadiainthought

@nadiainthought fr. i think many people have not had the experience of being lovingly but sternly pushed into becoming stronger, more competent, more responsible, higher integrity, etc. so then the best you can hope for is just being accepted as you are

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anita@neats29about 1 year ago
Replying to @QiaochuYuan

@QiaochuYuan I'd like to offer some personal thoughts to contribute to the discussion: > "...being overwhelmed by shame and having the vague sense that i was supposed to deal with it by loving myself more or being kinder to myself" I think this is sadly a v common way the message is…

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Matthew Dub@5matthewdubabout 1 year ago
Replying to @QiaochuYuan

@QiaochuYuan Sometimes you need to believe that contingently useful advice is actually ontological in order to trust it and gain its benefits. Unfortunately those who gain the benefits tend to become apostles of that mistaken ontology, mistaking good advice for reality.

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QC@QiaochuYuanabout 1 year ago
Replying to @5matthewdub

@5matthewdub that is well put. very unfortunate dynamic 😬 not very compatible with the existence of the internet

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cognitivetech@cognitivetech_about 1 year ago
Replying to @QiaochuYuan

@QiaochuYuan shame says : I AM badguilt says : I DID badinteresting question what exactly enables one to shift from shame to guilt (which is more loving), or shame to love (if one did no bad)Which will absolutely be different depending on the source of shame.

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ok, cartographer@ok_cartographerabout 1 year ago
Replying to @QiaochuYuan

@QiaochuYuan We must return to a more nuanced, broader understanding of love For when you love another and you see their path is headed towards darkness, you have a stern conversation The same can be said in relation to yourself You feel shame because you have betrayed love in some way

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9/7/2024
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Johnson (TC House Lisbon -Dec)@justavagrant_about 1 year ago
Replying to @QiaochuYuan

@QiaochuYuan I use the words guild and shame for this https://t.co/oSCbVrGcC1

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Johnson (TC House Lisbon -Dec)@justavagrant_almost 2 years ago

shame is an emotion of badness, rooted in fear of being unlovable, broken, unfit for connection/belonging. it's the emotion of an inner childguilt is an emotion of integrity, of acknowledging our impact, honoring desires and agreements. it's the emotion of an adult

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Johnson (TC House Lisbon -Dec)@justavagrant_about 1 year ago
Replying to @justavagrant_

@QiaochuYuan More https://t.co/eTxqdRrEVY

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Johnson (TC House Lisbon -Dec)@justavagrant_almost 2 years ago

This is part of why it’s so important to accept that we cause other people pain. If we don’t accept that we can never get curious about it and understand it, because it would forever be too painful https://t.co/V6wjbAJSHF

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