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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago

Many people only whip out self-love once they procrastinated. “Okay, okay, I fucked up, come self-love, I am ok, guilt is bad, go away.” It is right, then, to feel suspicious of self-love.

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

Fuck this self-love. For it is yet another fire extinguisher to extinguish guilt and pay no heed to the system at all. Fuck this self-love. For it distracts us from devotion to self, which above all starts with survival.

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

There *is* something profound to be discovered in that: even in those moments, you still truly are ok. A profound insight that will make you laugh, and absurd, and reprocess. If this is explicitly your practice, terrific.

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

For most people, it is not. For those people, I challenge you to hold off on the self-love.

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

You are a terrible person (whatever that means) for what you did. What’s that like? Stand in it. TER. RIB. BLE. Wow. Ouch.

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

Hold off on the self-love and bring it to yourself the next day. What’s it like to integrate it without a guilty fire raging?

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

What’s it like to have self-love actively reinforce actions in devotion to yourself, instead of simply extinguishing the flames every time you burn yourself?

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

There is self-love as a weapon of great power and self-love as a fundamental insight. They are not to be confused. Self-love as a weapon can be used to keep silence your system’s alarms. Or to reinforce your behavior.

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

Do not invoke self-love as extinguishing weapon under the pretense of discovering self-love as insight.

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8/26/2020
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Ray Doraisamy@forshaper• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@AskYatharth This kind of self-love sweeps guilt under the table, so that the guilt is not faced and dissolved more permanently?

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @forshaper

@forshaper This kind of self-love is a caged bird. Even if it sings, and it sings a song of truth, it is caged, brought out and taken back in on command, and in that, it is not the song of a free bird.

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@forshaper Guilt is an alarm system. I’ve begun to stop thinking of it as a problem. To focus on guilt is to focus on the alarms. Try and disable them. Not ask what is wrong in the system. Guilt is a load-bearing component. Eliminating it is reckless.

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@forshaper You either die, or you push yourself close enough to the edge you allow it to come back again, just enough to survive. Take the load off the work guilt was doing another way first. https://t.co/DiuUGfrMt7

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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago

Suffering is a load-bearing component of your system.

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@forshaper It’s true that even after you’ve taken the load off, even after guilt serves not much of a purpose, even after you live in a physically and socially safe enough environment, the pernicious guilt remains. Stabbing you. Causing you suffering you do not need.

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@forshaper Like middle managers, guilt is not very good at resigning once it’s no longer useful. But eliminating it is not antifragile. To have a suffering reduction strategy that involves not experiencing guilt is not antifragile.

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8/26/2020
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Ray Doraisamy@forshaper• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@AskYatharth What kind of conflict with a relatively guilt-free person would you count as a test?

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @forshaper

@forshaper I am intrigued by this question and also don’t understand it. Can you rephrase?

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8/26/2020
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Ray Doraisamy@forshaper• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@AskYatharth So if you knew someone was relatively 'guilt-free', what kind of situation would you setup to test their anti-fragility?

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @forshaper

@forshaper 1. Fuck them. 2. Raise our kid for 16 years. 3. Begin seeding an alcohol dependency. 4. Watch as they let their kid languish and lose some of the most pivotal years of their lives (college admissions) and know the difference they could have made if they tried a bit harder.

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@forshaper Ok, how do I delete tweets, I might want a job sometime between now and the future, ???

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8/26/2020
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Ray Doraisamy@forshaper• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@AskYatharth You're dependent enough on large organizations for your survival and sovereignty to police your behavior in order to avoid their (possibly ever increasing) red flags?

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @forshaper

@forshaper I got fired from the only office job I ever had, and squirmed out of the other one by negotiating a WFB (work-from-beach) policy.

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8/26/2020
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Ray Doraisamy@forshaper• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@AskYatharth How is WFB not a Social Movement!?

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8/26/2020
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Ray Doraisamy@forshaper• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@AskYatharth https://t.co/VPB6CrMpUD

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8/26/2020
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Ray Doraisamy@forshaper• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@AskYatharth And are you equating college success with antifragility?

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @forshaper

@forshaper All I was pointing to here is: college success can *feel* like a Big Deal to a parent and be a potent source of Guilt.

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@forshaper When the guilt comes back, there is now a fire. When there exist fires the consciousness must put out, the ego is insta-recreated in all sorts of unhelpful ways. Instead, it is more anti-fragile to not eliminate guilt but strive to tolerate it and not mind it very much.

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8/26/2020
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Ray Doraisamy@forshaper• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@AskYatharth Would you call this 'tolerating' something closer to shame? (assuming guilt implies some sort of moral debt)

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @forshaper

@forshaper Guilt vs shame in the BrenĂŠ Brown sense? (Link for the uninitiated: https://t.co/m1USqMwo5H)

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@forshaper Hot take (I’ll tweet storm it if you’re interested): Brené Brown’s shame vs guilt distinction is lies and *you* are still the problem.

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@forshaper If you were not you, you wouldn’t have done to behaviour, you would have done something a while ago to not have this behaviour, your priorities (“you”) are the problem, and that is ok, be ok with that being the case rather than being fed lies that crumble and hurt others.

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8/26/2020
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Ray Doraisamy@forshaper• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@AskYatharth Hrm, not the emphasis I was thinking of when I typed that. More like: shame as dynamic and contextual, guilt as fixed and measured against a universal standard.

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@forshaper Transmute it, play with it, not doing anything to it, ignore it, experience it, validate it—at that point, do whatever, really. As I said, I’ve stopped thinking of guilt as the problem. As a problem at all. Just a happening. Eh. And sure, tools exist to work with it if I’d like

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8/26/2020
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Ray Doraisamy@forshaper• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@AskYatharth Is it likely to force a confrontation of the kind of dying that is not dying? Ie, 'surrender'.

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @forshaper

@forshaper Yes! I love pushing myself there sometimes. Because honestly, sometimes it needs to get that bad for me to do something. This sounds extremely problematic, and it almost surely is. One problem at a time!

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@forshaper In seriousness (I was mostly kidding above), I think being in a lot of pain can be helpful. Being “done” with the default upcoming life can be the base upon which to alter it. I deliberate inculcate this kind of experiencing of pain often.

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8/26/2020
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Ray Doraisamy@forshaper• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@AskYatharth Yes, I'm generally in favor of hopelessness.

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @forshaper

@forshaper ^ These are the kinds of friends I need.

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@forshaper But I’d definitely forced confrontations simply out of drama, a hope that *this confrontation still* will somehow atone for my sins . . .

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@forshaper . . . that it will be a Sacrifice to the Gods (I must do sth like this, or how can I expect to be better; I did this, so I will no longer have to blame myself if it fails).

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8/26/2020
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Ray Doraisamy@forshaper• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@AskYatharth Would you say you are reacting to 'No guilt! in favor of self-love' with 'No "No guilt! in favor of self-love" in favor of personal responsibility'?

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @forshaper

@forshaper Nah. Personal responsibility can be a helpful frame (Landmark people elevate it to cult status), but isn’t to my personal taste. More like: ‘No “No guilt! in favour of self-love” in favour “huh, guilt, fascinating, i wanna feel it fully and fuller and fullerestevener”’

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@forshaper (hence my inclination to vajrayana) (but this is all just personal preference at this point. i have my opinions AKA sensitivities to what feels bypassy/right and other people have different ones)

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8/26/2020
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Ray Doraisamy@forshaper• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@AskYatharth Ah, a sense of wonder does allow for easier access to Play.

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8/26/2020
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abhay@abhayance• about 5 years ago
Replying to @AskYatharth

@AskYatharth Dr. K's types of procrastination:1. Idealizing performance2. Emotional avoidance3. Operational uncertaintyType 2 reaches for self-soothing techniques in meta-avoidance of itself.Related: We sustain exposure to familiar sources and levels of discomfort to avoid deeper ones.

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8/26/2020
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yatharth in asheville@AskYatharth• about 5 years ago
Replying to @abhayance

@AbhayPrasanna Familiar vs unfamiliar forms of discomfort — that’s what I was missing! Thank you. Reminds me of what my teachers would say: Our Box of Self does not try to make us happy, nor does it try to make us sad—its job is just to keep us in the predictable.

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8/27/2020